[clc-devel] Proposal: Wiki-Webpage
Hello everyone, I'd like to suggest moving the current CLC webpage to the CVSTrac Wiki at crux.fh-regensburg.de. My reasons are mainly the following: - allow everyone from CLC to adjust pages - allow direct linking with check-ins, bug reports and timeline (and the other way around) - simplify maintenance - stability of clc.berlios.de Hopefully, we'll even have more docs (e.g. for some ports) because it's so easy to add docs in Wiki; for example, we could add notes to kernel 2.6 related ports etc. Objections, comments, jokes ? Regards, Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw@tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net
On 03/05/04 17:49 Johannes Winkelmann wrote:
Hello everyone,
Hi,
I'd like to suggest moving the current CLC webpage to the CVSTrac Wiki at crux.fh-regensburg.de. My reasons are mainly the following:
- allow everyone from CLC to adjust pages - allow direct linking with check-ins, bug reports and timeline (and the other way around) - simplify maintenance - stability of clc.berlios.de
For me it's a good idea, if that Martin can provide the extra resources needed for the migration. (I bet we don't need a lot of extra bandwidth for now, but you never now ;)) I've always supported a more open CLC website, including subprojets such ar prt-utils, docs etc. Of course having a dedicated machine somewhere would help a lot, and save Martin some headache too. If I remember well a similar idea about such a machine also came out on CLC ML (thread about PPC ports). Time for hint for some sponsor? :) Regards, Simone -- Simone Rota WEB : http://www.varlock.com Bergamo, Italy MAIL: sip@varlock.com
Hi, On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 19:03:03 +0100, Simone Rota wrote:
On 03/05/04 17:49 Johannes Winkelmann wrote:
Hello everyone,
Hi,
I'd like to suggest moving the current CLC webpage to the CVSTrac Wiki at crux.fh-regensburg.de. My reasons are mainly the following:
- allow everyone from CLC to adjust pages - allow direct linking with check-ins, bug reports and timeline (and the other way around) - simplify maintenance - stability of clc.berlios.de
For me it's a good idea, if that Martin can provide the extra resources needed for the migration. (I bet we don't need a lot of extra bandwidth for now, but you never now ;)) :-) I've asked Martin before suggesting this move, and he's fine with it.
Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw@tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net
On 03/05/04 21:54 Johannes Winkelmann wrote:
Hi,
Ola,
For me it's a good idea, if that Martin can provide the extra resources needed for the migration. (I bet we don't need a lot of extra bandwidth for now, but you never now ;))
:-) I've asked Martin before suggesting this move, and he's fine with it.
Great! Btw, I was re-reading my previous mail in this thread; given the great amount of errors and typos in such a short text, for the sake of our community, I promise I won't touch the wiki pages :-) regards, Simone -- Simone Rota WEB : http://www.varlock.com Bergamo, Italy MAIL: sip@varlock.com
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Simone Rota wrote:
On 03/05/04 17:49 Johannes Winkelmann wrote:
Hello everyone,
Hi,
I'd like to suggest moving the current CLC webpage to the CVSTrac Wiki at crux.fh-regensburg.de. My reasons are mainly the following:
- allow everyone from CLC to adjust pages - allow direct linking with check-ins, bug reports and timeline (and the other way around) - simplify maintenance - stability of clc.berlios.de
For me it's a good idea, if that Martin can provide the extra resources needed for the migration. (I bet we don't need a lot of extra bandwidth for now, but you never now ;))
I've always supported a more open CLC website, including subprojets such ar prt-utils, docs etc.
Of course having a dedicated machine somewhere would help a lot, and save Martin some headache too. If I remember well a similar idea about such a machine also came out on CLC ML (thread about PPC ports).
It is a dedicated machine. But it's *only* a PC, without a real backup tape or something similar. I only tar the homes to a raid5 once a week, but that should be enough for our purpose. The bandwidth is at 400M/200M out/in the last months.
Time for hint for some sponsor? :)
Sponsor is Fachhochschule Regensburg (University of Applied Science Regensburg), where I work. But I have nothing against a brandnew machine ;-) Bye Martin -- martin opel / fachbereich informatik - fachhochschule regensburg dipl.-inf. / email: martin.opel@informatik.fh-regensburg.de (fh) / web: http://fbim.fh-regensburg.de/~opel/ / phone: +49 941 943-1336, fax: +49 941 943-1426
On Fri, 2004-03-05 at 11:49, Johannes Winkelmann wrote:
I'd like to suggest moving the current CLC webpage to the CVSTrac Wiki at crux.fh-regensburg.de.
Can we switch to subversion too? I just put my local ports into a svn repo and it is super fast and cool and AWESOME! If we're going to make some changes, shouldn't we just go all the way?! :-) -- Robert McMeekin <rrm3@rrm3.org>
* Robert McMeekin <rrm3@rrm3.org> [03/06/04 03:33]:
Can we switch to subversion too? I just put my local ports into a svn repo and it is super fast and cool and AWESOME! If we're going to make some changes, shouldn't we just go all the way?! :-)
On a somewhat related note, if you use bash I recommend adding the following line to your profile and/or bashrc. I have it in mine and it has been saving me a lot of trouble since my hands are having trouble learning that I'm using subversion now. ----8<-------------------------------------------------------- alias cvs=svn ---->8-------------------------------------------------------- ;-) -- Robert McMeekin <rrm3@rrm3.org>
On Fri, 2004-03-05 at 11:49, Johannes Winkelmann wrote:
I'd like to suggest moving the current CLC webpage to the CVSTrac Wiki at crux.fh-regensburg.de.
Can we switch to subversion too? I just put my local ports into a svn repo and it is super fast and cool and AWESOME! If we're going to make some changes, shouldn't we just go all the way?! :-) The thing I'm missing in subversion is the ability to "move a tag"; as tags are copies within the repository, one has to merge the changes made in the development line to the branch. Unfortunately, it is not yet
Hi, On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 03:33:47 -0500, Robert McMeekin wrote: possible to propagate all changes which aren't in the branch yet, so you'll have to know the exact revisions when you merged the last time. There's a workaround on http://www.linux1394.org/svn.html (look for "Creating a branch or tag") though. The distributed addon to subversion, svk, allows to merge changes between branches (see my wiki document on svk) and therefore fixes this problem. Advantages of the switch would be: - http checkout "for free" (it's the default transport), so no problems for users behind a firewall - nice features beyond CVS' functionality (rename, atomic commits and especially disconnected operations: add, diff, revert require no network connection) - as svk uses svn repositories, it is possible for developers to mirror a repository, make some changes, and push them back (distributed revision control) I'm not sure if it would be easy to mimick the output of cvsup for ports though, but since the checkout is a pure webdav application it's probably not too much work (e.g. adjust cadaver). http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/ would be a good replacement for CVSTrac, including Timeline and Wiki :-) There are a few other options: 1) monotone (http://www.venge.net/monotone) A system I like quite a lot, nice developer, good ideas. The only issue it currently has is that you can't merge a subtree (think: from branch "x86" base/grep to branch "ppc" base/grep), so selective merge (per port) isn't possible yet. Pro: - Distributed - Simple "tagging": monotone propagate <srcbranch> <destbranch> - Usage similar to cvs Contra: - No CVSTrac clone available - not perfectly stable yet (the networking part is about to be replaced in one of the next versions) - doesn't handle subtrees yet 2) darcs (http://abridgegame.org/darcs/) I've had a quick look at this one, but it seems too complicated (the "theory of patches") 3) arch/tla/arx (http://www.gnuarch.org) One of the most proven free distributed revision control system... freedesktop.org is using this one. I've done some tests with it, and it got into my way with things like forced naming schemes for commit messages and IMHO unfriendly usage (edit a message in a file first, then commit...). As far as I can tell I think svn/svk would be a good choice for a replacement and monotone looks very promising for the future. When it comes to CVSTrac like functionality, svn/svk is the only alternative I know of. If someone has other alternatives or experiences, please share :-) Regards, Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw@tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 01:21:31PM +0100, Johannes Winkelmann wrote: [...]
I'm not sure if it would be easy to mimick the output of cvsup for ports though, but since the checkout is a pure webdav application it's probably not too much work (e.g. adjust cadaver).
Apart form all technical advantages, this seems to be the real drawback. As long as we have no replacement for cvsup, which must be an opt port, the whole debate is a very theoretical one ;) ATM I'm very happy with the fact, that CLC uses the same distribution stuff as CRUX does, and would really prefer a solution which conserves this. Back to the main thread, I like the idea to have a wiki as the main web site for CLC. But what should happen with the other things hosted at berlios, like ports database, CLC mailing list ... ? Greetings Jürgen -- juergen.daubert@t-online.de
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 01:21:31PM +0100, Johannes Winkelmann wrote: [...]
I'm not sure if it would be easy to mimick the output of cvsup for ports though, but since the checkout is a pure webdav application it's probably not too much work (e.g. adjust cadaver).
Apart form all technical advantages, this seems to be the real drawback. As long as we have no replacement for cvsup, which must be an opt port, the whole debate is a very theoretical one ;) Just to get this straight: it's not a missing functionality, it's really only the way the output looks during updating. Writing a new backend for
Hi, On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 15:01:11 +0100, Juergen Daubert wrote: ports to support subversion would be just a matter of a few minutes: basically it's just svn revert, followed by an svn update. Note that since revert is a disconnected operation, no network is required for it. The revert feature could be cool even in other situations: if you broke a port, you don't have to ports -u just to revert it. Obvious drawback is the need to have a .svn directory within all ports directories, but this can be solved by using svk :-)
ATM I'm very happy with the fact, that CLC uses the same distribution stuff as CRUX does, and would really prefer a solution which conserves this. Yes, I guess being in sync with Per is a good thing. Maybe he'll elaborate on the idea of merging everything? ;-) This of course brings up another criteria I didn't take into account, which is permission per branch etc.
Back to the main thread, I like the idea to have a wiki as the main web site for CLC. But what should happen with the other things hosted at berlios, like ports database, CLC mailing list ... ? Well, the mailing list (mail server) is quite reliable, so I'd say we keep it there. I'd keep berlios as a cvs for stuff like docs, more of a Community page that ports development.
Regards, Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw@tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net
On Sat, 6 Mar 2004, Johannes Winkelmann wrote: [...]
ATM I'm very happy with the fact, that CLC uses the same distribution stuff as CRUX does, and would really prefer a solution which conserves this. Yes, I guess being in sync with Per is a good thing. Maybe he'll elaborate on the idea of merging everything? ;-)
The current situation (i.e. CRUX-related things on many different servers) isn't that bad or anything, I just think it would be nice if we could keep them all under crux.nu. The main problem is finding someone willing to host/co-locate such a server. /Per
Hi, On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 17:49:42 +0100, Johannes Winkelmann wrote:
Hello everyone,
I'd like to suggest moving the current CLC webpage to the CVSTrac Wiki at crux.fh-regensburg.de. My reasons are mainly the following: Is far as I can tell, no one's really against this. Those checking the timeline probably noticed that I've started to populate the CVSTrac Wiki, just when Daniel Müller brought up a very valid point (in private mail): Which flavour of Wiki we should use. There are a few argument pro and contra CVSTrac's:
Pro: - It's already there ;-) - Every CLC member already has a user account (if we're not going to make it entirely public) - You can create links to tickets by just writing "#19" and checkins ("[199]") Contra: - Not so many features; As far as I can tell, the only one I'm really missing is a static navigation which appears on every page. Basically I like the CVSTrac variant a lot, since it's fully integrated. On the other hand, I assume that the shortcuts to checkins and bug reports could be implemented on other wiki's as well. Regarding the "missing navigation" feature, it shouldn't be a problem to write a small patch against CVSTrac to add such a static part (I'd volunteer for this if nobody else wants). Alternatives: Daniel has suggested twiki (http://twiki.org/), and I recently stumbled on kwiki (http://kwiki.org/). Most certainly everyone has his/her own favorite ;-) Comments (especially from Martin :-)) highly appreciated. Thanks, Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw@tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net
On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 09:19:54AM +0100, Johannes Winkelmann wrote: [...]
Contra: - Not so many features; As far as I can tell, the only one I'm really missing is a static navigation which appears on every page.
You can specify a header/footer which appears on every page. Maybe a solution ?
Basically I like the CVSTrac variant a lot, since it's fully integrated.
Me too ;) Greetings Jürgen -- juergen.daubert@t-online.de
On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 09:19:54AM +0100, Johannes Winkelmann wrote: [...]
Contra: - Not so many features; As far as I can tell, the only one I'm really missing is a static navigation which appears on every page.
You can specify a header/footer which appears on every page. Maybe a solution ? This is definitely a good compromise, plus as the code for "edit
Hi Jürgen, On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 09:40:36 +0100, Juergen Daubert wrote: headers" is already there, adding two an additional "wiki header" and "wiki footer" will be simple and clean. Thanks for the hint, Regards Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw@tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net
On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 09:40:36 +0100, Juergen Daubert wrote: > On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 09:19:54AM +0100, Johannes Winkelmann wrote: > [...] > > Contra: > > - Not so many features; As far as I can tell, the only one I'm really > > missing is a static navigation which appears on every page. > > You can specify a header/footer which appears on every page. > Maybe a solution ? I just figured out this approach has two slight weaknesses: 1. the header appears above the CVSTrac navigation bar 2. it doesn't understand WikiLinks; HTML links are fine though. Just as a sidenote :-) Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw@tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net
On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Johannes Winkelmann wrote: [wiki/twiki/kwiki pros and cons]
Comments (especially from Martin :-)) highly appreciated.
My only comment is, that I have no time this and the next months to implement other systems than cvstrac on crux.fh-regensburg.de because 1. I'm moving one more time 2. the semester begins on monday and we have therefore a lot of work to prepare the computer rooms But I can give one or two guys I trust shell account to crux.fh-regensburg.de. With trust I mean maintainer who proofed already that they know what they do :) Bye Martin -- martin opel / fachbereich informatik - fachhochschule regensburg dipl.-inf. / web: http://fbim.fh-regensburg.de/~opel/ (fh) / phone: +49 941 943-1336, fax: +49 941 943-1426
participants (6)
-
Johannes Winkelmann -
Juergen.Daubert＠t-online.de -
Martin Opel -
Per Liden -
Robert McMeekin -
Simone Rota