Recent list questions have prompted me to think about the handbook. This may be a little harsh but something like it inserted somewhere almost as a disclaimer. I'd add it to the handbook just after the first paragraph of section 2.1. Joe CRUX is not designed for people without prior Linux/Unix administration experience. You will have to configure EVERYTHING yourself. That means your HDD partitioning, X11, networking, udev, modules, kernel, bash prompt and all those other things that happen auto-magically in other distributions wont in CRUX. You most probably will have to find answers online for configuration options.
On Tuesday 08 May 2007 12:00, Joe Gilmour wrote:
Recent list questions have prompted me to think about the handbook. This may be a little harsh but something like it inserted somewhere almost as a disclaimer. I'd add it to the handbook just after the first paragraph of section 2.1.
Joe
CRUX is not designed for people without prior Linux/Unix administration experience. You will have to configure EVERYTHING yourself. That means your HDD partitioning, X11, networking, udev, modules, kernel, bash prompt and all those other things that happen auto-magically in other distributions wont in CRUX. You most probably will have to find answers online for configuration options.
Seconded, even though you could argue that this is implicated with being an "an experienced" user. However, apparently being "experienced" does no longer mean what it used to. People seem come from some pointy-clicky dists nowadays, rather than Slack/Debian/(insert other random "hardcore" dist) as it used to be. //treach
On 5/8/07, treach <treachster@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday 08 May 2007 12:00, Joe Gilmour wrote:
Seconded, even though you could argue that this is implicated with being an "an experienced" user. However, apparently being "experienced" does no longer mean what it used to. People seem come from some pointy-clicky dists nowadays, rather than Slack/Debian/(insert other random "hardcore" dist) as it used to be.
YES. take my example, i came from Fedora Core and Debain to CRUX. Fedora is applying the -- Windows philosophy of success -- (think sysconfig). i think we can add one more line on who exactly is an "experienced user": the one who can play easily on Slackware/Gentoo. CRUX is simply not for Fedora/UBUNTU/Debian users. -- http://arnuld.blogspot.com/
Am Dienstag, 8. Mai 2007 13:16:48 schrieb arnuld:
On 5/8/07, treach <treachster@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday 08 May 2007 12:00, Joe Gilmour wrote:
Seconded, even though you could argue that this is implicated with being an "an experienced" user. However, apparently being "experienced" does no longer mean what it used to. People seem come from some pointy-clicky dists nowadays, rather than Slack/Debian/(insert other random "hardcore" dist) as it used to be.
YES. take my example, i came from Fedora Core and Debain to CRUX. Fedora is applying the -- Windows philosophy of success -- (think sysconfig). i think we can add one more line on who exactly is an "experienced user": the one who can play easily on Slackware/Gentoo.
CRUX is simply not for Fedora/UBUNTU/Debian users.
No. I don't think so. For example: Before I used CRUX, Debian was for long time my favorite distribution. But I never have big trouble with CRUX. I don't think that 'an experienced user' defined by the distribution. With CRUX some things are even more simply for example provide from packages / ports. If I remember deb...
On 5/8/07, Hannes Mayer <kontakt@ecarux.de> wrote:
Am Dienstag, 8. Mai 2007 13:16:48 schrieb arnuld:
On 5/8/07, treach <treachster@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday 08 May 2007 12:00, Joe Gilmour wrote:
Seconded, even though you could argue that this is implicated with being an "an experienced" user. However, apparently being "experienced" does no longer mean what it used to. People seem come from some pointy-clicky dists nowadays, rather than Slack/Debian/(insert other random "hardcore" dist) as it used to be.
YES. take my example, i came from Fedora Core and Debain to CRUX. Fedora is applying the -- Windows philosophy of success -- (think sysconfig). i think we can add one more line on who exactly is an "experienced user": the one who can play easily on Slackware/Gentoo.
CRUX is simply not for Fedora/UBUNTU/Debian users.
No. I don't think so. For example: Before I used CRUX, Debian was for long time my favorite distribution. But I never have big trouble with CRUX. I don't think that 'an experienced user' defined by the distribution. With CRUX some things are even more simply for example provide from packages / ports. If I remember deb...
YES, i agre 100%. CRUX ports system, which comes from BSD culture (i guess), is the SIMPLEST package managing system i have ever seen. i really love this "opt", "core", "contrib" ports idea and LOTs of thanks to the programmer who invented it :-) -- http://arnuld.blogspot.com/
On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 07:16:48AM -0400, arnuld wrote:
On 5/8/07, treach <treachster@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday 08 May 2007 12:00, Joe Gilmour wrote:
Seconded, even though you could argue that this is implicated with being an "an experienced" user. However, apparently being "experienced" does no longer mean what it used to. People seem come from some pointy-clicky dists nowadays, rather than Slack/Debian/(insert other random "hardcore" dist) as it used to be.
Then it should be specified because all linux distributions have their own quirks. At the moment it is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.
CRUX is simply not for Fedora/UBUNTU/Debian users.
I disagree. The distribution one starts using Linux has very little to do with learning ability. Some people are lazy and probably scared of different ways of accomplishing tasks. The beauty of Linux distributions is the variety of ways to accomplish any given task. The larger distributions are all about automation, while others allow much more user decision making to customize a system to their own needs. At the end of the day it is up to the user to undertake the effort to learn and understand how a Linux system works.
I would like to add my two sense as well. I have used linux for a breif period, ~2 years, and have gone from redhat to ubuntu to debian and slackware and arch. I know a fair amount, and how to update all the scripts for my hardware, load/restrict modules, compile kernels etc. I agree that much of this is lost on the bigger dist. that aim for out of the box user experience. My personal decision to give crux a try was to dig deeper, learn to understand the underbelly and interconnections of everything, and the way it all really works. To dive in and sink or swim by being forced to learn, expand my knowledge. I will agree that reposts, and stupid questions that come from inexperienced users who aren't willing to google search, read previous threads from boards etc is annoying.....But, any statement that should be added should be done with care. Anything sounding crass, rude, or eliteous is self defeating and can backfire (as some distros have learned, and been labeled negativily for it). I would rather a simple statement saying be added saying: "Crux does not automatically configure any scripts for the user, partioning, X11, udev, networking, modules, kernel etc. are left for the user to properly configure. Maybe some reference to how this fits into the KISS atitude and goal. The Crux community would encourage users with difficulty to search the web, read the documentation and man pages, and search forums before posting new questions or visiting the irc channels." short to the point and said in such a manner, such that people like me, who came to an independant distro to learn and continue having fun are not put off. In addition, a simple stick post, or a page/link simply explaining where to find the applicable scripts the new user may face, their layout and common problems, in an easily found place can solve many repeat threads and questions. On 5/8/07, Jesse Kokkarinen <jesse.kokkarinen@kapsi.fi> wrote:
On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 07:16:48AM -0400, arnuld wrote:
On 5/8/07, treach <treachster@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday 08 May 2007 12:00, Joe Gilmour wrote:
Seconded, even though you could argue that this is implicated with being an "an experienced" user. However, apparently being "experienced" does no longer mean what it used to. People seem come from some pointy-clicky dists nowadays, rather than Slack/Debian/(insert other random "hardcore" dist) as it used to be.
Then it should be specified because all linux distributions have their own quirks. At the moment it is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.
CRUX is simply not for Fedora/UBUNTU/Debian users.
I disagree. The distribution one starts using Linux has very little to do with learning ability. Some people are lazy and probably scared of different ways of accomplishing tasks. The beauty of Linux distributions is the variety of ways to accomplish any given task. The larger distributions are all about automation, while others allow much more user decision making to customize a system to their own needs.
At the end of the day it is up to the user to undertake the effort to learn and understand how a Linux system works. _______________________________________________ CRUX mailing list CRUX@lists.crux.nu http://lists.crux.nu/mailman/listinfo/crux
-- Fortune favors the brave - Virgil Ryan King BscFE, BscE (Mechanical) No Fixed Address - Thailand for now ryan.d.king@unb.ca rdking77@gmail.com
On 5/8/07, Ryan King <rdking77@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like to add my two sense as well. I have used linux for a breif period, ~2 years,
you got more experience than myself.
and have gone from redhat to ubuntu to debian and slackware and arch. I know a fair amount, and how to update all the scripts for my hardware, load/restrict modules, compile kernels etc. I agree that much of this is lost on the bigger dist. that aim for out of the box user experience.
again here, much betetr than me.
My personal decision to give crux a try was to dig deeper, learn to understand the underbelly and interconnections of everything, and the way it all really works. To dive in and sink or swim by being forced to learn, expand my knowledge.
EXACTLY my reasoon, you stole my personal property (my decision) ;-)
I will agree that reposts, and stupid questions that come from inexperienced users who aren't willing to google search, read previous threads from boards etc is annoying.....
simply say: "arnuld is stupid and inexperienced GNU OS user". or "arnuld's is not efficient at solving problems. the persons who are not effective and efficient at solving their problems should not try CRUX" that looks much better :-)
But, any statement that should be added should be done with care. Anything sounding crass, rude, or eliteous is self defeating and can backfire (as some distros have learned, and been labeled negativily for it).
right.
I would rather a simple statement saying be added saying:
"Crux does not automatically configure any scripts for the user, partioning, X11, udev, networking, modules, kernel etc. are left for the user to properly configure.
i don't think so because when i install CRUX it creates "networking script" automatically in "/etc/rc.d/net". i do NOT have create that script myself. it is there. even i see ready-made "/etc/fstab" there.
short to the point and said in such a manner, such that people like me, who came to an independant distro to learn and continue having fun are not put off. In addition, a simple stick post, or a page/link simply explaining where to find the applicable scripts the new user may face, their layout and common problems, in an easily found place can solve many repeat threads and questions.
YES, this is 1st 2nd thing CRUX needs. it definitely needs to be there. make it a FAQ and 1st thing is to *define* who exactly can use CRUX. simply saying "for experiencd user" doesn ot tell much. may be "CRUX community" needs an article *in* its FAQ, like "Path to CRUX", "how a CRUX-ian thinks" or "Why you should use CRUX" OOPS, that "CRUXian" is my accidental-invention ;-) -- http://arnuld.blogspot.com/
On 5/8/07, Jesse Kokkarinen <jesse.kokkarinen@kapsi.fi> wrote:
arnuld wrote:
Then it should be specified because all linux distributions have their own quirks. At the moment it is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.
i got thought process got a hit when i read this. more on this down here.
CRUX is simply not for Fedora/UBUNTU/Debian users.
I disagree. The distribution one starts using Linux has very little to do with learning ability. Some people are lazy and probably scared of different ways of accomplishing tasks. The beauty of Linux distributions is the variety of ways to accomplish any given task. The larger distributions are all about automation, while others allow much more user decision making to customize a system to their own needs.
At the end of the day it is up to the user to undertake the effort to learn and understand how a Linux system works.
so the problem is with *me* or with my *way* of solving problems. ok i will try to find where, in habits, the problem is. -- http://arnuld.blogspot.com/
On 5/8/07, arnuld <geek.arnuld@gmail.com> wrote:
so the problem is with *me* or with my *way* of solving problems. ok i will try to find where, in habits, the problem is.
Arnuld, It's not that we have a personal vendetta against you. We love the idea of our community growing and CRUX getting more exposure. Its just that, well... we dont hand hold people through stuff. Part of CRUX is learning the ins-and-outs by your self and only asking the community if you are stuck for like a week. have you tried linuxfromscratch.org? i'd go there go through the whole process and come back to CRUX when you have it under your belt. It'll take a while, and hell you need to go through some update cycles, but in about 6 months you should have enough experience to tackle any problem you ever have. -- Best Regards, Jonathan Asghar phone: 512.619.0722
On 5/8/07, Jonathan Asghar <jjasghar@gmail.com> wrote:
Arnuld, It's not that we have a personal vendetta against you.
NO, i never even thought of that. trust me. i was just thinking, since everybody is "pointing finger' at me, and all are experienced CRUXians so i must be wrong in this place. that is OK.
We love the idea of our community growing and CRUX getting more exposure. Its just that, well... we dont hand hold people through stuff. Part of CRUX is learning the ins-and-outs by your self and only asking the community if you are stuck for like a week. have you tried linuxfromscratch.org? i'd go there go through the whole process and come back to CRUX when you have it under your belt. It'll take a while, and hell you need to go through some update cycles, but in about 6 months you should have enough experience to tackle any problem you ever have.
now Jonathan, you have shown me the way. MANY thanks :-) -- http://arnuld.blogspot.com/
We love the idea of our community growing and CRUX getting more exposure. Its just that, well... we dont hand hold people through stuff. Part of CRUX is learning the ins-and-outs by your self and only asking the community if you are stuck for like a week. have you tried linuxfromscratch.org? i'd go there go through the whole process and come back to CRUX when you have it under your belt. It'll take a while, and hell you need to go through some update cycles, but in about 6 months you should have enough experience to tackle any problem you ever have.
now Jonathan, you have shown me the way. MANY thanks :-)
So Texan for me to say... "Happy trails!" (it worked :P) -- Best Regards, Jonathan Asghar phone: 512.619.0722
participants (7)
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arnuld -
Hannes Mayer -
Jesse Kokkarinen -
Joe Gilmour -
Jonathan Asghar -
Ryan King -
treach