From sip at varlock.com Sun May 1 17:12:34 2005 From: sip at varlock.com (Simone Rota) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 19:12:34 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] Roadmap In-Reply-To: <20050429151222.GD2412@titanium> References: <20050429151222.GD2412@titanium> Message-ID: <42750E02.2020305@varlock.com> On 04/29/05 17:12 Johannes Winkelmann wrote: > I think it's time that we try to come up with a roadmap for the time > ahead. [cut] > I'm not sure whether we should organize some IRC/Skype/whatever-meeting > or discuss this in the mailing list, but I feel that we should just do > it sometimes soon, since there are people actively working on some of > these things and I feel bad myself about not providing them more help. > So if you have a moment, please take the time to think about the above, > and how/whether you'd like to discuss this. Comments appreciated, but > not required :-). I think a realtime meeting (IRC or something) is the best option: during the last weeks discussion on the ML has proved a bit slow; I'd opt for something more immediate at least for this occasion, since I believe some choice / plan has to be made ASAP to avoid confusion, unnecessary work, etc. Any suggestion for date, time and media is welcome. Regards, Simone. -- Simone Rota WEB : http://www.varlock.com Bergamo, Italy MAIL: sip at varlock.com From jue at jue.li Tue May 3 16:34:57 2005 From: jue at jue.li (Juergen Daubert) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 18:34:57 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] 2.1 tag for unmaintained ports In-Reply-To: <42517F35.2090304@varlock.com> References: <42517F35.2090304@varlock.com> Message-ID: <20050503163457.GA1954@jue.netz> On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 07:53:57PM +0200, Simone Rota wrote: > Hi there, Hi all, > Me, Johannes and Juergen had a brief discussion on IRC > regarding ports that one is going to drop for 2.1. > > Please tag them GRAVEYARD, (not UNMAINTAINED) so people > still using the 2.0 ports won't get duplicates in contrib > and unmaintained. ... and please remove the tag if you adopt such a port. The simple cvs/awk line below shows all ports tagged as CONTRIB-2_1 and GRAVEYARD. thanks and kind regards J?rgen cvs status -v */Pkgfile | awk 'BEGIN{RS=/^=+$/}; /GRAVEYARD/&&/CONTRIB-2_1/ {print $0}' -- Juergen Daubert | mailto:jue at jue.li Korb, Germany | http://jue.li/crux From crux at morpheus.net Tue May 3 19:02:53 2005 From: crux at morpheus.net (crux at morpheus.net) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:02:53 -0500 Subject: [clc-devel] [CLC Ticket Notification] xfce4 port should be updated,bugfix release is out Message-ID: <20050503190256.B478F7C9786@dream.morpheus.net> Assigned to [clc-devel at lists.berlios.de] The following CLC ticket (83) has been created or modified: Description: Remarks: Contact: predivan at ptt dot yu CLC User: anonymous Status: new URL: http://clc.morpheus.net:6999/clc/tktview?tn=83 From crux at morpheus.net Tue May 3 21:48:04 2005 From: crux at morpheus.net (crux at morpheus.net) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 16:48:04 -0500 Subject: [clc-devel] [CLC Ticket Notification] xfce4 port should be updated,bugfix release is out Message-ID: <20050503214807.E30FF7C97DB@dream.morpheus.net> Assigned to [clc-devel at lists.berlios.de] The following CLC ticket (83) has been created or modified: Description: Remarks: Contact: predivan at ptt dot yu CLC User: anonymous Status: closed URL: http://clc.morpheus.net:6999/clc/tktview?tn=83 From jaeger at morpheus.net Fri May 6 15:10:31 2005 From: jaeger at morpheus.net (Matt Housh) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 10:10:31 -0500 Subject: [clc-devel] Discussion? sysconfdir settings in CLC ports Message-ID: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Greetings, all. I'd like to start some discussion about explicitly setting sysconfdir (or confdir or whatever the package uses) back to /etc instead of letting the default prefix decide it. I'd love to hear what everyone thinks of this because it's causing me and jdolan at least a few issues. Here's the problem: XDG-compliant apps (freedesktop.org XDG stuff) look for XDG_DATA_DIRS and XDG_CONFIG_DIRS (and possibly XDG_DATA_HOME and XDG_CONFIG_HOME) in the environment and try to use those if they exist. If they do not, /etc/xdg and /usr/share are the defaults. While this doesn't sound like a problem from that small description, graveman and gnome-menus both behave badly under certain circumstances due to these. gnome-menus first: gnome-menus expects to use XDG_CONFIG_DIRS for its menu population. If the environment variables are NOT set, the default /etc/xdg is assumed and you won't see any custom menus or most of the default editable entries in gnome. If the environment variables ARE set, the menus appear correctly. But then graveman doesn't work. graveman uses XDG_DATA_DIRS for its themes/icons/whatever. That would be fine except that there seems to be a bug (posted but not yet acknowledged) in how graveman searches for these files. The port installs files in /usr/share/graveman. If the env vars are not set, these are found. If they ARE set, XDG_DATA_DIRS will be /usr/share but graveman for some reason adds the config file name to that as a directory and goes from there. So you see something like this: stat64("/usr/share/graveman/graveman.conf/themes/default/Menu-Other-48.png", 0xbfffe8a0) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory) It's appending "graveman.conf" to an otherwise correct XDG_DATA_DIRS+graveman location. Symlinking graveman.conf to . in /usr/share/graveman will work around this but that's ugly as hell, IMO. Openbox also uses these but it doesn't seem to care whether its XDG configs are in /usr/etc/xdg or /etc/xdg. HOWEVER, if they are in one and the env var is set to the other, menus fail to work as might be expected. So here's what I'm getting at: Why do we use /usr/etc? Is it simply because that's the default when --prefix=/usr is used? If so, does anyone object to setting --sysconfdir=/etc for those apps which honor it? This isn't really a lot of apps, it seems mostly gnome stuff. However, pango and gtk2 at least are included: jaeger::charon::/usr/etc => ls bonobo-activation gnome-lite gnopernicus-1.0 pear.conf esd.conf gnome-vfs-2.0 gtk-2.0 sound gconf gnome-vfs-mime-magic pango xdg pear, esound, pango, gtk appear to be affected but this is still a very small list. I can understand not wanting to put things in /etc that aren't vital to the running of the system but on the other hand, things are starting to fail in weird ways the more apps I install (graveman today was what really brought this to my attention, though). While it seems we can force some things to use /usr/etc/xdg instead of /etc/xdg, others just flat-out don't support a non-default location correctly, from what I'm seeing. Thoughts? - -- Matt Housh (jaeger at freenode/#crux) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCe4jnGFVQ7mavvGgRAo6nAJ9Mo9I5asQnepwu4i+OiZPpuLCXSwCfQqsp DNUfai8k/abGfnIL3hSopxk= =cS43 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jaeger at morpheus.net Fri May 6 15:13:14 2005 From: jaeger at morpheus.net (Matt Housh) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 10:13:14 -0500 Subject: [clc-devel] Discussion? sysconfdir settings in CLC ports In-Reply-To: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> References: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> Message-ID: <427B898A.1080205@morpheus.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Matt Housh wrote: > Thoughts? I forgot to include in my previous mail that debian (unstable) and gentoo (2005.0) don't use /usr/etc at all, for what that's worth. My guess is that most of the mainstream dists don't and that's why these bugs are being missed so easily... - -- Matt Housh (jaeger at freenode/#crux) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCe4mKGFVQ7mavvGgRAlQ+AJ9JeNUpm0hYK6L8AJXXljEvrVg9awCfQgOK vAkyVguewTgp5bPSiO/UdSk= =xpg5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Nick.Steeves at shaw.ca Fri May 6 19:54:36 2005 From: Nick.Steeves at shaw.ca (Nick Steeves) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 13:54:36 -0600 Subject: [clc-devel] Discussion? sysconfdir settings in CLC ports In-Reply-To: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> References: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> Message-ID: <200505061354.36579.sten@digitalmercury.lb.shawcable.net> On May 6, 2005 9:10, Matt Housh wrote: > So here's what I'm getting at: Why do we use /usr/etc? Is it simply > because that's the default when --prefix=/usr is used? If so, does > anyone object to setting --sysconfdir=/etc for those apps which honor > it? This isn't really a lot of apps, it seems mostly gnome stuff. > However, pango and gtk2 at least are included: > jaeger::charon::/usr/etc => ls > bonobo-activation gnome-lite gnopernicus-1.0 pear.conf > esd.conf gnome-vfs-2.0 gtk-2.0 sound > gconf gnome-vfs-mime-magic pango xdg > > pear, esound, pango, gtk appear to be affected but this is still a very > small list. > > I can understand not wanting to put things in /etc that aren't vital to > the running of the system but on the other hand, things are starting to > fail in weird ways the more apps I install (graveman today was what > really brought this to my attention, though). While it seems we can > force some things to use /usr/etc/xdg instead of /etc/xdg, others just > flat-out don't support a non-default location correctly, from what I'm > seeing. > > Thoughts? From Nick.Steeves at shaw.ca Fri May 6 20:20:46 2005 From: Nick.Steeves at shaw.ca (Nick Steeves) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 14:20:46 -0600 Subject: [clc-devel] Discussion? sysconfdir settings in CLC ports In-Reply-To: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> References: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> Message-ID: <200505061420.46420.sten@digitalmercury.lb.shawcable.net> Sorry about the duplicate! I pressed ctrl+enter, instead of ctrl+k, and sent it by mistake. On May 6, 2005 9:10, Matt Housh wrote: > So here's what I'm getting at: Why do we use /usr/etc? Is it simply > because that's the default when --prefix=/usr is used? If so, does > anyone object to setting --sysconfdir=/etc for those apps which honor > it? This isn't really a lot of apps, it seems mostly gnome stuff. > However, pango and gtk2 at least are included: IMHO, this is SysV-esque clutter. CRUX's BSD-like filesystem layout seems cleaner to me, and it would be a shame to muddle it. Also, /etc is usually protected because that is /etc/pkgadd.conf's default. /usr/etc is usually overwritten with each release, which insures that the upgrade works out of the box. Isn't the latter preferable to the support nightmare of persistent configuration files which might be incompatible in some way with the upgraded API? Will rejmerge after every upgrade become a necessity which springs from this? Why not adopt portage and etc-update while we're at it... > I can understand not wanting to put things in /etc that aren't vital to > the running of the system but on the other hand, things are starting to > fail in weird ways the more apps I install (graveman today was what > really brought this to my attention, though). While it seems we can > force some things to use /usr/etc/xdg instead of /etc/xdg, others just > flat-out don't support a non-default location correctly, from what I'm > seeing. > > Thoughts? Attached is the gnome-menus Makefile from FreeBSD. Are those two sed lines enough to make gnome-menus do /usr/etc? Quite often I head over to freshports.org, in order to derive solutions/inspiration for a port I'm working on. Interestingly, graveman looks like a relatively normal port. I have a feeling the secret is in the "gnomehack" and "gnomeprefix". (http://www.freebsd.org/gnome/docs/gnome_porting.html) Maybe it's not worth the bother though... If I liked SysV clutter, I'd use a Debian variant, or at least ROCKLinux. ;-) My favourite thing about CRUX, is that it's so BSD-like. Cheers, Nick -------------- next part -------------- # New ports collection makefile for: gnome-menus # Date created: 30 November 2004 # Whom: Joe Marcus Clarke # # $FreeBSD: /repoman/r/pcvs/ports/x11/gnome-menus/Makefile,v 1.1 2005/03/12 10:39:37 marcus Exp $ # PORTNAME= gnome-menus PORTVERSION= 2.10.0 CATEGORIES= x11 gnome MASTER_SITES= ${MASTER_SITE_GNOME} MASTER_SITE_SUBDIR= sources/${PORTNAME}/2.10 DIST_SUBDIR= gnome2 MAINTAINER= gnome at FreeBSD.org COMMENT= Implementation of the FreeDesktop Desktop Menu Spec USE_BZIP2= yes USE_X_PREFIX= yes USE_REINPLACE= yes USE_GMAKE= yes USE_GNOME= gnomeprefix gnomehack intlhack gnomevfs2 USE_LIBTOOL_VER=15 INSTALLS_SHLIB= yes CONFIGURE_ENV= CPPFLAGS="-I${LOCALBASE}/include" \ LDFLAGS="-L${LOCALBASE}/lib" post-patch: @${REINPLACE_CMD} -e 's|/usr/share/gnome|${X11BASE}/share/gnome|g' \ ${WRKSRC}/layout/applications.menu \ ${WRKSRC}/layout/settings.menu @${SED} -e 's|/usr/local|${LOCALBASE}|g' \ < ${FILESDIR}/KDE.directory > ${WRKSRC}/KDE.directory post-install: @${MKDIR} ${PREFIX}/share/gnome/desktop-directories @${INSTALL_DATA} ${WRKSRC}/KDE.directory ${PREFIX}/share/gnome/desktop-directories .include From jaeger at morpheus.net Fri May 6 23:11:28 2005 From: jaeger at morpheus.net (Matt Housh) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 18:11:28 -0500 Subject: [clc-devel] Discussion? sysconfdir settings in CLC ports In-Reply-To: <200505061420.46420.sten@digitalmercury.lb.shawcable.net> References: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> <200505061420.46420.sten@digitalmercury.lb.shawcable.net> Message-ID: <427BF9A0.20607@morpheus.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Nick Steeves wrote: > IMHO, this is SysV-esque clutter. CRUX's BSD-like filesystem layout seems > cleaner to me, and it would be a shame to muddle it. Also, /etc is usually > protected because that is /etc/pkgadd.conf's default. /usr/etc is usually > overwritten with each release, which insures that the upgrade works out of > the box. Isn't the latter preferable to the support nightmare of persistent > configuration files which might be incompatible in some way with the upgraded > API? Will rejmerge after every upgrade become a necessity which springs from > this? Why not adopt portage and etc-update while we're at it... My concern isn't about aesthetics at all, really. It's simply about software that doesn't work like you'd expect. > Attached is the gnome-menus Makefile from FreeBSD. Are those two sed lines > enough to make gnome-menus do /usr/etc? Quite often I head over to > freshports.org, in order to derive solutions/inspiration for a port I'm > working on. Interestingly, graveman looks like a relatively normal port. I > have a feeling the secret is in the "gnomehack" and "gnomeprefix". > (http://www.freebsd.org/gnome/docs/gnome_porting.html) Maybe it's not worth > the bother though... As far as I can tell, those sed lines have absolutely zero to do with XDG. I'll take a look at a few other freebsd/whatever ports but this one isn't any particular indication. As for graveman, it IS a rather normal port. The problem is just a bug in its runtime behavior. Hopefully they'll fix it soon, though. Anyway, I'm not completely against the /usr/etc bit if we can get everything to play nicely but I suppose that will take time to figure out. - -- Matt Housh (jaeger at freenode/#crux) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCe/mgGFVQ7mavvGgRApd+AKCyKRHHgOF33yQ3XI5H4ua0kz90cgCfQDyf IAUlFRB3+NMd5fp7bXtlHHE= =Udil -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jw at tks6.net Sat May 7 11:27:25 2005 From: jw at tks6.net (Johannes Winkelmann) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 13:27:25 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] Discussion? sysconfdir settings in CLC ports In-Reply-To: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> References: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> Message-ID: <20050507112725.GA1712@titanium> On Fri, May 06, 2005 at 10:10:31 -0500, Matt Housh wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Greetings, all. > > I'd like to start some discussion about explicitly setting sysconfdir > (or confdir or whatever the package uses) back to /etc instead of > letting the default prefix decide it. [...] > So here's what I'm getting at: Why do we use /usr/etc? Is it simply > because that's the default when --prefix=/usr is used? I think we should use it because it's stated in the directory layout rules of CRUX: http://www.fukt.bth.se/~per/crux/doc/handbook.html#Package-Guidelines-Directories /usr/etc// Configuration files /etc/ Configuration files for system software (daemons, etc) That said, we certainly have packages not following this rule, at least not explicitely. > I can understand not wanting to put things in /etc that aren't vital to > the running of the system but on the other hand, things are starting to > fail in weird ways the more apps I install (graveman today was what > really brought this to my attention, though). While it seems we can > force some things to use /usr/etc/xdg instead of /etc/xdg, others just > flat-out don't support a non-default location correctly, from what I'm > seeing. I quite like to have a small /etc; I currently have 84 entries in /etc, and 11 in /usr/etc (I have no desktop environment installed). I'm not sure if this is significant, though... I could certainly live with both, but I'd rather have a smaller /etc already now and therefore think moving everything to /etc would be a step in the wrong direction. That said, I'd prefer the following solution: put it into /usr/etc first; if problems occur (and I guess this is the hard part: finding out that those problems are related to sysconfdir), execute the "bad-sysconfdir" procedure: 1. switch sysconfigdir to /etc 2. submit a bug to the CLC (soon CRUX?) bugtracker to keep track of it 3. submit a bug to the developer This way, we have at least a working package, as soon as the problem is detected. We should probably also note the symptoms of this problem somewhere on the webpage, to help both new maintainers and users find the cause faster. In addition, we should also go through the existing ports (and those in the new contrib) checking whether there are ports installing to /etc when they should go to /usr/etc. Kind regards, Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw at tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net From jue at jue.li Sat May 7 13:05:14 2005 From: jue at jue.li (Juergen Daubert) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 15:05:14 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] Discussion? sysconfdir settings in CLC ports In-Reply-To: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> References: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> Message-ID: <20050507130514.GA9343@jue.netz> On Fri, May 06, 2005 at 10:10:31AM -0500, Matt Housh wrote: > jaeger::charon::/usr/etc => ls > bonobo-activation gnome-lite gnopernicus-1.0 pear.conf > esd.conf gnome-vfs-2.0 gtk-2.0 sound > gconf gnome-vfs-mime-magic pango xdg > > pear, esound, pango, gtk appear to be affected but this is still a very > small list. There are some others here, note that xfce4 is a xdg application: analog dillo enscript foomatic-filters gtk1 irssi lftp mutt nail pekwm sane windowmaker xfce4 Apart from that I agree with Johannes and the guide lines, /etc should be reserved for system services while user applications should put their stuff into /usr/etc. Greetings Juergen -- Juergen Daubert | mailto:jue at jue.li Korb, Germany | http://jue.li/crux From sip at varlock.com Sat May 7 15:30:21 2005 From: sip at varlock.com (Simone Rota) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 17:30:21 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] Discussion? sysconfdir settings in CLC ports In-Reply-To: <20050507130514.GA9343@jue.netz> References: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> <20050507130514.GA9343@jue.netz> Message-ID: <427CDF0D.5080404@varlock.com> On 05/07/05 15:05 Juergen Daubert wrote: > There are some others here, note that xfce4 is a xdg application: > analog dillo enscript foomatic-filters gtk1 irssi lftp mutt nail > pekwm sane windowmaker xfce4 > > Apart from that I agree with Johannes and the guide lines, /etc > should be reserved for system services while user applications > should put their stuff into /usr/etc. Hi, I slightly prefer the "everything into /etc" approach. At the moment there are ~60 ports in contrib + opt that install stuff in /usr/etc, (mostly gnome related) and I believe they would not add too much clutter. So if moving to /etc really saves us some headache I'm for it, expecially since only people with gnome installed would experience a little bigger /etc Just my 2c, I usually try to keep my installations as small as possible, so for me there is no big difference. Regards, Simone -- Simone Rota WEB : http://www.varlock.com Bergamo, Italy MAIL: sip at varlock.com From crux at morpheus.net Mon May 9 08:26:41 2005 From: crux at morpheus.net (crux at morpheus.net) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 03:26:41 -0500 Subject: [clc-devel] [CLC Ticket Notification] xf68config not found Message-ID: <20050509082644.A4EA51FAA354@dream.morpheus.net> Assigned to [clc-devel at lists.berlios.de] The following CLC ticket (84) has been created or modified: Description: Remarks: Contact: simon dot void at gmx dot de CLC User: anonymous Status: new URL: http://clc.morpheus.net:6999/clc/tktview?tn=84 From jw at tks6.net Mon May 9 13:20:11 2005 From: jw at tks6.net (Johannes Winkelmann) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 15:20:11 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] Roadmap In-Reply-To: <42750E02.2020305@varlock.com> References: <20050429151222.GD2412@titanium> <42750E02.2020305@varlock.com> Message-ID: <20050509132011.GA6575@titanium> Hi, On Sun, May 01, 2005 at 19:12:34 +0200, Simone Rota wrote: > [cut] > > > I'm not sure whether we should organize some IRC/Skype/whatever-meeting > > or discuss this in the mailing list, but I feel that we should just do > > it sometimes soon > I think a realtime meeting (IRC or something) is the best option [...] > Any suggestion for date, time and media is welcome. I'd suggest we do a "bug squishing day" inspired by debian and others, where we all meet in a special IRC room (#crux-bugs) to discuss things like adapting ports from former maintainers, webpage move and similar issues. We might also go for a whole weekend to make sure everyone has the chance to drop by once. What about next weekend (either Tue-Fri-Sat, or Fri-Sat-Sun)? Would that work for you guys? Kind regards, Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw at tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net From sip at varlock.com Mon May 9 15:29:32 2005 From: sip at varlock.com (Simone Rota) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 15:29:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [clc-devel] Roadmap In-Reply-To: <20050509132011.GA6575@titanium> References: <20050429151222.GD2412@titanium> <42750E02.2020305@varlock.com> <20050509132011.GA6575@titanium> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 May 2005, Johannes Winkelmann wrote: > I'd suggest we do a "bug squishing day" inspired by debian and others, > where we all meet in a special IRC room (#crux-bugs) to discuss things > like adapting ports from former maintainers, webpage move and similar > issues. We might also go for a whole weekend to make sure everyone has > the chance to drop by once. Good idea! > What about next weekend (either Tue-Fri-Sat, or Fri-Sat-Sun)? Would that > work for you guys? This weekend OK for me. We should also setup a IRC log for the channel during the days as a reference to re-collect the ideas after the meeting. (and for people coming in the 2nd and 3rd day) Regards, Simone From jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com Mon May 9 13:54:36 2005 From: jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com (Jay Dolan) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 06:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [clc-devel] Roadmap In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050509135436.99078.qmail@web41524.mail.yahoo.com> --- Johannes Winkelmann wrote: > I'd suggest we do a "bug squishing day" inspired by > debian and others, > where we all meet in a special IRC room (#crux-bugs) > to discuss things > like adapting ports from former maintainers, webpage > move and similar > issues. We might also go for a whole weekend to make > sure everyone has > the chance to drop by once. > > What about next weekend (either Tue-Fri-Sat, or > Fri-Sat-Sun)? Would that > work for you guys? > Sure. I can set aside at least a few hours next weekend. Jay Dolan Software Engineer, Systems Analyst Windmill Cycles, Inc. 508.999.4000 Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html From sip at varlock.com Mon May 9 14:31:36 2005 From: sip at varlock.com (Simone Rota) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 16:31:36 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] Roadmap In-Reply-To: <20050509135436.99078.qmail@web41524.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050509135436.99078.qmail@web41524.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <427F7448.2010204@varlock.com> On 05/09/05 15:54 Jay Dolan wrote: >>What about next weekend (either Tue-Fri-Sat, or >>Fri-Sat-Sun)? Would that >>work for you guys? > > Sure. I can set aside at least a few hours next weekend. You hope. You've been selected to attend all 3 days of the meeting (72 hrs) and *manually* log the chat sessions by typing into a text editor. Copy & paste cheating not allowed. Have fun! Simone -- Simone Rota WEB : http://www.varlock.com Bergamo, Italy MAIL: sip at varlock.com From jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com Mon May 9 14:49:28 2005 From: jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com (Jay Dolan) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 07:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [clc-devel] Roadmap In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050509144928.3861.qmail@web41509.mail.yahoo.com> --- Simone Rota wrote: > You hope. You've been selected to attend all 3 days > of the > meeting (72 hrs) and *manually* log the chat > sessions > by typing into a text editor. > Copy & paste cheating not allowed. > > Have fun! > Simone > :[ I suppose I deserve this, for making you guys put up with me.. *cracks knuckles* let's get started, then.. ;) Jay Dolan Software Engineer, Systems Analyst Windmill Cycles, Inc. 508.999.4000 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From tillbiedermann at yahoo.de Mon May 9 15:24:29 2005 From: tillbiedermann at yahoo.de (Till Biedermann) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 17:24:29 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] Roadmap In-Reply-To: <20050509132011.GA6575@titanium> References: <20050429151222.GD2412@titanium> <42750E02.2020305@varlock.com> <20050509132011.GA6575@titanium> Message-ID: <427F80AD.6080903@yahoo.de> Johannes Winkelmann wrote: > What about next weekend (either Tue-Fri-Sat, or Fri-Sat-Sun)? Would that > work for you guys? > This weekend is OK for me too. Regards Till -- http://www.tbmnet.de From jasghar at a-ls.com Mon May 9 18:19:14 2005 From: jasghar at a-ls.com (Jonathan Asghar) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 13:19:14 -0500 Subject: [clc-devel] Roadmap In-Reply-To: <20050509132011.GA6575@titanium> References: <20050429151222.GD2412@titanium> <42750E02.2020305@varlock.com> <20050509132011.GA6575@titanium> Message-ID: If you guys are or with it, count me in, i'd love to help! (even if i am a "newbie") ;) -J From victord at v600.net Tue May 10 22:41:38 2005 From: victord at v600.net (Victor) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:41:38 -0400 Subject: [clc-devel] Discussion? sysconfdir settings in CLC ports In-Reply-To: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> References: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> Message-ID: <428138A2.8050005@v600.net> Matt Housh wrote: > Greetings, all. > > I'd like to start some discussion about explicitly setting sysconfdir > (or confdir or whatever the package uses) back to /etc instead of > letting the default prefix decide it. I'd love to hear what everyone > thinks of this because it's causing me and jdolan at least a few issues. I think "everything in /etc" is better, as long as offenders with lots of configs go into /etc//* like what samba, apache, etc do. I really don't like having configs in two places. I know there is this / /usr debate, but really, that's unix's past that was divided for a reason. I don't think the same argument holds today. Too many thing contradict the rule. So having one place with configs is easier to control. but I could be wrong, and I usually am, so don't listen to me! Whatever prt-get decides is fine by me! Laters From jue at jue.li Wed May 11 06:35:42 2005 From: jue at jue.li (Juergen Daubert) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:35:42 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] Discussion? sysconfdir settings in CLC ports In-Reply-To: <428138A2.8050005@v600.net> References: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> <428138A2.8050005@v600.net> Message-ID: <20050511063542.GA7359@jue.netz> On Tue, May 10, 2005 at 06:41:38PM -0400, Victor wrote: > Matt Housh wrote: > >Greetings, all. > > > >I'd like to start some discussion about explicitly setting sysconfdir > >(or confdir or whatever the package uses) back to /etc instead of > >letting the default prefix decide it. I'd love to hear what everyone > >thinks of this because it's causing me and jdolan at least a few issues. > > I think "everything in /etc" is better, as long as offenders with lots > of configs go into /etc//* like what samba, apache, etc do. Sorry, but I guess, that you everything-into-/etc guys read over one important point of Nick's mail: Also, /etc is usually protected because that is /etc/pkgadd.conf's default. /usr/etc is usually overwritten with each release, which insures that the upgrade works out of the box. Isn't the latter preferable to the support nightmare of persistent configuration files which might be incompatible in some way with the upgraded API? That's at least important for progs like gtk, sane, mutt, nail etc., the settings are important for the applications, but the user shouldn't ever touch them and they _must_ be overwritten with new releases. kind regards Juergen -- Juergen Daubert | mailto:jue at jue.li Korb, Germany | http://jue.li/crux From jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com Wed May 11 19:34:23 2005 From: jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com (Jay Dolan) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [clc-devel] Discussion? sysconfdir settings in CLC ports In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050511193423.8832.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> --- Juergen Daubert wrote: > Sorry, but I guess, that you everything-into-/etc > guys read over one > important point of Nick's mail: > > > Also, /etc is usually protected because that is > /etc/pkgadd.conf's > default. /usr/etc is usually overwritten with each > release, which > insures that the upgrade works out of the box. > Isn't the latter > preferable to the support nightmare of persistent > configuration files > which might be incompatible in some way with the > upgraded API? > > > That's at least important for progs like gtk, sane, > mutt, nail etc., > the settings are important for the applications, but > the user shouldn't > ever touch them and they _must_ be overwritten with > new releases. > > kind regards > Juergen > > I agree. While I expressed distress with xdg/gnome-menus problems, I do not feel that /etc is the proper place for all package configurations. In fact, I'd like to see more ports make use of /usr/etc, as things like gdm, cups, and ssh end up requiring lots of rejmerg attention. /etc should be reserved for very essential, and rather static, system config files. *If* a user ends up having to edit something in /usr/etc, he/she should know well enough to make an addition for it in /etc/pkgadd.conf if he/she so desires. Jay Dolan Software Engineer, Systems Analyst Windmill Cycles, Inc. 508.999.4000 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From victord at v600.net Wed May 11 19:49:35 2005 From: victord at v600.net (Victor) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:49:35 -0400 Subject: [clc-devel] Discussion? sysconfdir settings in CLC ports In-Reply-To: <20050511063542.GA7359@jue.netz> References: <427B88E7.1090301@morpheus.net> <428138A2.8050005@v600.net> <20050511063542.GA7359@jue.netz> Message-ID: <428261CF.5070305@v600.net> Juergen Daubert wrote: > On Tue, May 10, 2005 at 06:41:38PM -0400, Victor wrote: > >>Matt Housh wrote: >> >>>Greetings, all. >>> >>>I'd like to start some discussion about explicitly setting sysconfdir >>>(or confdir or whatever the package uses) back to /etc instead of >>>letting the default prefix decide it. I'd love to hear what everyone >>>thinks of this because it's causing me and jdolan at least a few issues. >> >>I think "everything in /etc" is better, as long as offenders with lots >>of configs go into /etc//* like what samba, apache, etc do. > > > Sorry, but I guess, that you everything-into-/etc guys read over one > important point of Nick's mail: > > > Also, /etc is usually protected because that is /etc/pkgadd.conf's > default. /usr/etc is usually overwritten with each release, which > insures that the upgrade works out of the box. Isn't the latter > preferable to the support nightmare of persistent configuration files > which might be incompatible in some way with the upgraded API? > > > That's at least important for progs like gtk, sane, mutt, nail etc., > the settings are important for the applications, but the user shouldn't > ever touch them and they _must_ be overwritten with new releases. can't this be solved by adding logic into pkgadd.conf that has a NOT clause in it and just add NOT that will allow those NOT things to be overwritten? Or just remove /etc from the list and specify everything that should NOT be automatically updated. There is no way to cleanly handle this and /usr/etc doesn't solve the problem, it just moves it to another location. Victor From jw at tks6.net Wed May 11 21:47:59 2005 From: jw at tks6.net (Johannes Winkelmann) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 23:47:59 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] bug day(tm) Message-ID: <20050511214759.GA1641@titanium> Hi, This is mainly meant for Per and CLC maintainers, but in no way private: Let's see whether this "bug day" is a good thing: the idea is to focus on some more or less burning issues and discuss them in a separate IRC channel (we can always talk about our daily life in #archlinux ;-)). I added the items from the "roadmap" mail to a wiki page, online at http://clc.morpheus.net:6999/clc/wiki?p=BugDayTm Please add/adjust this page at will. If you feel like discussing about those and other issues, please join #crux-bugday, from now until saturday. Kind regards, Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw at tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net From jw at tks6.net Mon May 16 12:30:47 2005 From: jw at tks6.net (Johannes Winkelmann) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:30:47 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] new contrib rules Message-ID: <20050516123047.GA2658@titanium> Hi, The new contrib collection is entering its real testing phase, thanks to Jay's work setting it up this weekend. I'd like to start public testing really soon now, and I've gone over the rules document to make sure participants understand the goals and consequences thereof. I'd appreciate if those interested of you could read through it, ask questions, make changes, fix typos etc. It's the first part on http://clc.morpheus.net:6999/clc/wiki?p=NewContribRules (the second part was the original doc). As soon as this document is in an okay shape, I'd suggest we start the public testing. I think we should have another meeting _after_ the test phase (or after a while of testing) with both users, non-clc participants und us to see whether our idea is good or not. Thanks for your help, Regards Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw at tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net From jw at tks6.net Mon May 16 14:38:26 2005 From: jw at tks6.net (Johannes Winkelmann) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:38:26 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] bug day(tm) In-Reply-To: <20050511214759.GA1641@titanium> References: <20050511214759.GA1641@titanium> Message-ID: <20050516143826.GC2658@titanium> Hey, the bug days are over, and I figured I'd post a short summary and comment on it: (if you'd like to read through the discussions, log files can be found at http://clc.morpheus.net/irc/index.php?channel=crux-bugday). First off all, I think we haven't managed to discuss all the items mentioned on the wiki page, but mainly because the hosting situation is not clear at all (on which many of the other tasks depend). Multiple efforts so resolve this are ongoing, or will start this week. The new contrib collection is online, and as you've probably read public testing should start soon, certainly within this week. The 'alias' discussion was not really extensive, but I guess we'll just introduce it and see how it feels, since it's completely restricted to prt-get at the moment. I plan to make a new release of prt-get later this week, or next weekend, incorporating the list of aliases. Jukka has provided lists of ports with broken sources, and broken dependencies (deps which are not in contrib): http://clc.morpheus.net:6999/clc/wiki?p=BrokenSources http://clc.morpheus.net:6999/clc/wiki?p=MissingPorts I you haven't done so, please check those two lists. Till Biedermann has given us an update on his work on a new port database, which will be fully integrated in the wiki. Finally, as a general impression, I liked the fact that it was a focused meeting and opportunity to discuss issues with multiple members of CLC. On the other hand, it was a bit long (three days) and we had too many items listed to discuss (well, we have many outstanding issues, but still). I'd like to hear different opinions, but in general, I'd consider it a good idea to do something like this more regularly, say once per month, and maybe "just" two days. Kind regards, Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw at tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net From jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com Mon May 16 15:00:25 2005 From: jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com (Jay Dolan) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 08:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [clc-devel] bug day(tm) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050516150025.47115.qmail@web32908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Johannes Winkelmann wrote: > First off all, I think we haven't managed to discuss > all the items > mentioned on the wiki page, but mainly because the > hosting situation is > not clear at all (on which many of the other tasks > depend). Multiple > efforts so resolve this are ongoing, or will start > this week. I should have a definite answer this week from UMass Dartmouth, as to whether or not they'll host us. > The new contrib collection is online, and as you've > probably read public > testing should start soon, certainly within this > week. HttpUp maintainers interested in participating, please email me your .httpup driver files from the email address you wish to receive clc-contrib@ notifications at. Also, be sure to tag your ports with .sync files. > The 'alias' discussion was not really extensive, but > I guess we'll just > introduce it and see how it feels, since it's > completely restricted to > prt-get at the moment. I plan to make a new release > of prt-get later > this week, or next weekend, incorporating the list > of aliases. Yay :) Can we review the list of aliases before this release? > Jukka has provided lists of ports with broken > sources, and broken > dependencies (deps which are not in contrib): > http://clc.morpheus.net:6999/clc/wiki?p=BrokenSources > > http://clc.morpheus.net:6999/clc/wiki?p=MissingPorts > I you haven't done so, please check those two lists. I'll be adopting netpbm, and have indicated so on the MissingPorts list. If others would do so as well, we can avoid working to replace the same ports twice. > Till Biedermann has given us an update on his work > on a new port > database, which will be fully integrated in the > wiki. Sweet. > Finally, as a general impression, I liked the fact > that it was a focused > meeting and opportunity to discuss issues with > multiple members of CLC. > On the other hand, it was a bit long (three days) > and we had too many > items listed to discuss (well, we have many > outstanding issues, but > still). > > I'd like to hear different opinions, but in general, > I'd consider it a > good idea to do something like this more regularly, > say once per month, > and maybe "just" two days. > Yea, that sounds reasonable. Even every-other-month would be an improvement, and is perhaps a bit more reasonable. Jay Dolan Software Engineer, Systems Analyst Windmill Cycles, Inc. 508.999.4000 __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com Mon May 16 15:40:06 2005 From: jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com (Jay Dolan) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 08:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [clc-devel] Re: prtsync manpage In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050516154006.62423.qmail@web32908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Nick Steeves wrote: > Hi Jay, > > Under the sync section of the prtsync manpage, the > email format is specified > as: EMAIL=user at provider.net. It should read: > EMAIL=user at provider dot > net, according to those port guideline changes from > earlier this spring. > Here's a bit of code to show what I mean: > > Line 80 > - email=`fgrep "EMAIL=" $driver | sed "s/EMAIL=//"` > + email=`fgrep "EMAIL=" $driver | sed -e > "s/EMAIL=//" -e "s/ at /@/" > + # is there a better way to guarantee $? is 0? > + test 1=1 > + # how should one deal with an unpredictable # of > "dot"? > + while [ $? -eq 0 ]; do > + email=`echo $email | sed "s| dot |.|"` > + echo $email | grep " dot " > /dev/null > +done > url=`fgrep "URL=" $driver | sed "s/URL=//"` > Line 83 > > > Cheers, > Nick > Hi Nick, The EMAIL directive is not required by httpup(8) or ports(8). It's an extension used only by prtsync, only on the CLC server. As this address is never publicly viewed over the web (unlike Pkgfiles), I think leaving it unobscured is perfectly fine. However, if others think it'd be a nice feature, I'll add support for it. I guess people could start supplying EMAIL in their .httpup files, aleviating some of the prtsync maintenance, as I currently add this by hand *g*. Perhaps a slightly cleaner patch: email=`fgrep "EMAIL=" $driver | sed 's|EMAIL=||; s| at |@|; s| dot |\.|'` This would actually allow either address syntax. Thanks for poking into this :) Jay Dolan Software Engineer, Systems Analyst Windmill Cycles, Inc. 508.999.4000 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jasghar at a-ls.com Wed May 18 21:39:50 2005 From: jasghar at a-ls.com (Jonathan Asghar) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:39:50 -0500 Subject: [clc-devel] FAQ In-Reply-To: <42788E45.2080402@edgeirc.net> References: <42785B5C.4030702@bway.net> <20050504061042.GE26414@boetes.org> <42788ADB.8040300@bway.net> <42788E45.2080402@edgeirc.net> Message-ID: <92ca2940086b9c80371f21b5677b22d9@a-ls.com> Hey guys, I'm starting a more complete FAQ for the clc. Ya'll can check out the work in progress at http://tito.homelinux.org/fileserver/faq.html. My question is: What are some FAQs? I'm working on it but figured that should ask anyway. Jonathan Asghar From jw at tks6.net Sun May 22 00:11:34 2005 From: jw at tks6.net (Johannes Winkelmann) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 02:11:34 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] please review: contribution guide Message-ID: <20050522001134.GD9315@titanium> Hi, I've been asked a few times on IRC now how to contribute to "CRUX", and therefore decided to write a short guide about steps towards CLC maintainership: http://clc.morpheus.net:6999/clc/wiki?p=HowToContribute I'd appreciate if you could have a quick look at it, adjust it, fix my typos, word order and grammar errors etc. (it's pretty late here already...). Thanks, Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw at tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net From per at fukt.bth.se Mon May 23 21:03:46 2005 From: per at fukt.bth.se (Per Liden) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 23:03:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [clc-devel] CRUX Hosting Message-ID: Hey Charlie and CLC guys, I'm writing in english and CC'ing the CLC mailinglist so that the CLC-team can also participate in this discussion. First just a short summary to bring the CLC guys up to date. (Charlie, feel free to correct any inaccurates in my summary). Some time ago Charlie asked me if there was something he could do to help the CRUX project. Charlie works at Mitex (an ISP in Kalmar/Sweden that use CRUX on ~30 of their servers) and since the CRUX/CLC project have been looking for alternative hosting for some time I took the opportunity to ask if some kind of dedicated server was possible to arrange. Charlie was quite positive to this and thought it would be possible to make something like this happen. At the time we spoke I was in the middle of releasing CRUX 2.1 (i.e. had lot's to do) so I said I would come back to this once the dust had settled. So, here we are. CRUX 2.1 has been released and now would be a good time to return to the hosting issue. I'd like to start of this discussion by asking you Charlie, first of all, does the offer still stand? If so, could you please make short summary of what kind of hosting you (Mitex?) could provide for the CRUX/CLC project? I'm thinking that things like server/disk capacity, limitations on bandwidth, possible firewalls, root access, general ruls, etc are things of interest to us and a good starting point. kind regards, /Per From jw at tks6.net Thu May 26 11:46:26 2005 From: jw at tks6.net (Johannes Winkelmann) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:46:26 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts Message-ID: <20050526114626.GA6579@titanium> Hi, Lately, I'm having second thoughts whether it's a good idea to merge opt and contrib into one collection. Not to be missunderstood, I consider it very important to merge CVS repositories, and CRUX/CLC. But somehow I don't like the idea of having 5 window managers, MTA's, web servers and the like in opt. I've been discussing this with Juergen quickly, and he seemed to agree to that consideration. My suggestion would be to keep a separate category, maybe called 'extra' or something like that, and allow maintainers to suggest ports for addition into opt. Those contrib ports which are currently included on the ISO would certainly make good candidates for that. In the end, we have a need for this distinction anyway, since we couldn't include 'opt' completely an ISO if it was merged with contrib. At CRUXCon 2004, we said we'd introduce a 'core group', marked with an attribute in the Pkgfile. To me, keeping a third collection seems very similar, but easier to understand for users. We'd then have the following hierarchy: - base: ports required to run a crux system - opt: ports required depending on the use of the machine - extra: ports which replace ports from opt (function wise) or extend it - contrib: user contributed ports Bad idea, good idea? Kind regard, Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw at tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net From tilman at code-monkey.de Thu May 26 13:39:44 2005 From: tilman at code-monkey.de (Tilman Sauerbeck) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:39:44 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts In-Reply-To: <20050526114626.GA6579@titanium> References: <20050526114626.GA6579@titanium> Message-ID: <20050526133944.GA26326@code-monkey.de> Johannes Winkelmann [2005-05-26 13:46]: > to that consideration. My suggestion would be to keep a separate > category, maybe called 'extra' or something like that, and allow > maintainers to suggest ports for addition into opt. Those contrib ports > which are currently included on the ISO would certainly make good > candidates for that. > > [...] > > We'd then have the following hierarchy: > - base: ports required to run a crux system > - opt: ports required depending on the use of the machine > - extra: ports which replace ports from opt (function wise) or extend > it > > - contrib: user contributed ports Not sure I understood that correctly. You're suggesting that we'd kinda rename contrib to 'extra' in the first step, and then move some important/very useful ports to opt? If I got that right, it sounds like a good idea to me. Regards, Tilman -- learn to quote: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html From jw at tks6.net Thu May 26 16:08:01 2005 From: jw at tks6.net (Johannes Winkelmann) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:08:01 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts In-Reply-To: <20050526133944.GA26326@code-monkey.de> References: <20050526114626.GA6579@titanium> <20050526133944.GA26326@code-monkey.de> Message-ID: <20050526160801.GD12756@titanium> Hi Tilman, On Thu, May 26, 2005 at 15:39:44 +0200, Tilman Sauerbeck wrote: [...] > Not sure I understood that correctly. > You're suggesting that we'd kinda rename contrib to 'extra' in the > first step, and then move some important/very useful ports to opt? That sums it up really well, yes :-). Regards, Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw at tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net From jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com Thu May 26 16:12:20 2005 From: jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com (Jay Dolan) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050526161221.32425.qmail@web32909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, I'm not yet convinced that it's entirely necessary. What's the harm in having all of these things in opt? Per will simply decide what comes on the ISO. The rest being there doesn't hurt anyone.. I don't think (?) I'm not saying you're not right. I'm just saying I'm not entirely convinced yet :) Also, why not name this collection, if it comes to fruition, 'clc'? Jay Dolan Software Engineer, Systems Analyst Windmill Cycles, Inc. 508.999.4000 __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From jasghar at a-ls.com Thu May 26 16:26:54 2005 From: jasghar at a-ls.com (Jonathan Asghar) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:26:54 -0500 Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts In-Reply-To: <20050526160801.GD12756@titanium> References: <20050526114626.GA6579@titanium> <20050526133944.GA26326@code-monkey.de> <20050526160801.GD12756@titanium> Message-ID: Do you think we could have sub directories underneath opt? like /opt/x11-win or /opt/irc etc? -J On May 26, 2005, at 11:08 AM, Johannes Winkelmann wrote: > Hi Tilman, > > On Thu, May 26, 2005 at 15:39:44 +0200, Tilman Sauerbeck wrote: > [...] >> Not sure I understood that correctly. >> You're suggesting that we'd kinda rename contrib to 'extra' in the >> first step, and then move some important/very useful ports to opt? > That sums it up really well, yes :-). > > Regards, Johannes > -- > Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw at tks6.net > Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net > _______________________________________________ > clc-devel mailing list > clc-devel at lists.berlios.de > http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/clc-devel From blizz at evilhackerdu.de Thu May 26 17:05:27 2005 From: blizz at evilhackerdu.de (Stephan Seidt) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:05:27 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <20050526114626.GA6579@titanium> <20050526133944.GA26326@code-monkey.de> <20050526160801.GD12756@titanium> Message-ID: <429601D7.1090600@evilhackerdu.de> Hi there I myself experienced categorizing ports as rather annoying. The only difference it made was having to search in which subdirectory the port was located. Well, well, maybe there are also pros which i dont know of ;) Let me know! Regards, stephan Jonathan Asghar wrote: > > Do you think we could have sub directories underneath opt? like > /opt/x11-win or /opt/irc etc? > > -J > > > On May 26, 2005, at 11:08 AM, Johannes Winkelmann wrote: > >> Hi Tilman, >> >> On Thu, May 26, 2005 at 15:39:44 +0200, Tilman Sauerbeck wrote: >> [...] >> >>> Not sure I understood that correctly. >>> You're suggesting that we'd kinda rename contrib to 'extra' in the >>> first step, and then move some important/very useful ports to opt? >> >> That sums it up really well, yes :-). >> >> Regards, Johannes >> -- >> Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw at tks6.net >> Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net >> _______________________________________________ >> clc-devel mailing list >> clc-devel at lists.berlios.de >> http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/clc-devel > > > _______________________________________________ > clc-devel mailing list > clc-devel at lists.berlios.de > http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/clc-devel From jasghar at a-ls.com Thu May 26 17:12:40 2005 From: jasghar at a-ls.com (Jonathan Asghar) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:12:40 -0500 Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts In-Reply-To: <429601D7.1090600@evilhackerdu.de> References: <20050526114626.GA6579@titanium> <20050526133944.GA26326@code-monkey.de> <20050526160801.GD12756@titanium> <429601D7.1090600@evilhackerdu.de> Message-ID: True, it would be tedious but it could make life easier. There is so much software out there that it would be kinda nice to categorize it in my opinion. Keep it simple true, but sometimes some organization can help. Thoughts? -J On May 26, 2005, at 12:05 PM, Stephan Seidt wrote: > Hi there > > I myself experienced categorizing ports as rather annoying. > The only difference it made was having to search in which subdirectory > the port was located. > Well, well, maybe there are also pros which i dont know of ;) Let me > know! > > Regards, stephan > > Jonathan Asghar wrote: >> Do you think we could have sub directories underneath opt? like >> /opt/x11-win or /opt/irc etc? >> -J >> On May 26, 2005, at 11:08 AM, Johannes Winkelmann wrote: >>> Hi Tilman, >>> >>> On Thu, May 26, 2005 at 15:39:44 +0200, Tilman Sauerbeck wrote: >>> [...] >>> >>>> Not sure I understood that correctly. >>>> You're suggesting that we'd kinda rename contrib to 'extra' in the >>>> first step, and then move some important/very useful ports to opt? >>> >>> That sums it up really well, yes :-). >>> >>> Regards, Johannes >>> -- >>> Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw at tks6.net >>> Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> clc-devel mailing list >>> clc-devel at lists.berlios.de >>> http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/clc-devel >> _______________________________________________ >> clc-devel mailing list >> clc-devel at lists.berlios.de >> http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/clc-devel > From Nick.Steeves at shaw.ca Thu May 26 23:17:24 2005 From: Nick.Steeves at shaw.ca (Nick Steeves) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:17:24 -0600 Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts In-Reply-To: <20050526114626.GA6579@titanium> References: <20050526114626.GA6579@titanium> Message-ID: <200505261717.24887.sten@digitalmercury.lb.shawcable.net> On May 26, 2005 5:46, Johannes Winkelmann wrote: > Hi, > > Lately, I'm having second thoughts whether it's a good idea to merge opt > and contrib into one collection. Not to be missunderstood, I consider it > very important to merge CVS repositories, and CRUX/CLC. But somehow I > don't like the idea of having 5 window managers, MTA's, web servers and > the like in opt. Why not merge opt and contrib, and then "sticky tag" all the opt ports as OPT? We already have a CLC tag, so perhaps this tag-distinction could be leveraged to our advantage? > I've been discussing this with Juergen quickly, and he seemed to agree > to that consideration. My suggestion would be to keep a separate > category, maybe called 'extra' or something like that, and allow > maintainers to suggest ports for addition into opt. Those contrib ports > which are currently included on the ISO would certainly make good > candidates for that. I like this idea. Could it be implemented with a persistent tag? To suggest a port for inclusion into OPT, tag it EXTRA, and if one feels that it might require a reason, send an email to Per as well. File.cvsup would split up the large CVS collection into the usual, comfortable collection of directories that make up /usr/ports. Then there no Pkgfile changes are needed. Wouldn't the 'core group' necessitate some kind of parsing function complexity? > We'd then have the following hierarchy: > - base: ports required to run a crux system > - opt: ports required depending on the use of the machine > - extra: ports which replace ports from opt (function wise) or extend > it > > - contrib: user contributed ports Ok, so base would remain base. Opt would be a tag. Extra would a tag. CLC is already a tag. Perhaps CLC should go in /usr/ports/clc? Contrib would be user-contributed ports. (this sounds like that "people" collection of a little while ago) So: / / BASE: Per Our CVS / / \ Many ports / OPT:Per EXTRA: Us One root \ \ / Tagged for Sanity. \ CLC: Us \ | \ CONTRIB: Users Will "CONTRIB: Users" and "CLC: Us" be merged in CVS, or in /usr/ports/contrib? What will happen to the CONTRIB-X_Y tag? Will the user's contrib automatically be tagged CONTRIB-X_Y (CURRENT)? Finally, what belongs where? For example, where should I put a very nice QT3 style/theme, or a not-everyone-will-use-this application? (ed2k-gtk-gui, or gnugo, for example) Should it remain in my httpup repo, should it be synced into "CONTRIB: Users"? Does the "persistent tags single CVS split into multiple dirs via cvsup" idea sound simple and manageable enough? Jonathan Asghar mentioned splitting up ports according to function. It seems like we can probably last another year without this, but perhaps it might be a good idea for CRUX-3.0, if our "CONTRIB: Users" grows significantly? Jay: Do you think this functionality could be implemented the .sync file? The .sync would be a "sync to where" token. Just trying to think about how to keep things simple, in an increasingly complex climate. Nick P.S. I'm not sure if I understand the mechanics of a "sticky tag". It sounds like it would be useful as a persistent marker... From jw at tks6.net Sat May 28 12:55:38 2005 From: jw at tks6.net (Johannes Winkelmann) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:55:38 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <20050526114626.GA6579@titanium> <20050526133944.GA26326@code-monkey.de> <20050526160801.GD12756@titanium> Message-ID: <20050528125538.GB2775@titanium> Hi, On Thu, May 26, 2005 at 11:26:54 -0500, Jonathan Asghar wrote: > > Do you think we could have sub directories underneath opt? like > /opt/x11-win or /opt/irc etc? Another one that comes up from time to time Per's main argument here: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=crux&m=107592763603892&w=2 There has been some talk about introducing 1:n package-category relationships by making active use of the 'group'/'category' tag in Pkgfiles: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=crux&m=107599052116162&w=2 but I think there was no work done on this. Finally, it's very hard to get the granularity right: too many categories will give the packagers a lot of work when categorizing a package (which often means that it's not done properly), and too few will give you again a superset of what you were looking for. In the end, proper package descriptions and tools to search packages by description are a pretty good alternative to categories (IMHO, of course). Regards, Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw at tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net From jasghar at a-ls.com Sat May 28 17:04:36 2005 From: jasghar at a-ls.com (Jonathan Asghar) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 12:04:36 -0500 Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts In-Reply-To: <20050528125538.GB2775@titanium> References: <20050526114626.GA6579@titanium> <20050526133944.GA26326@code-monkey.de> <20050526160801.GD12756@titanium> <20050528125538.GB2775@titanium> Message-ID: <4298A4A4.1020208@a-ls.com> I understand now. Sorry to bring out the dead horse and beat it. ;) -J Johannes Winkelmann wrote: >Hi, > >On Thu, May 26, 2005 at 11:26:54 -0500, Jonathan Asghar wrote: > > >>Do you think we could have sub directories underneath opt? like >>/opt/x11-win or /opt/irc etc? >> >> >Another one that comes up from time to time Per's main argument here: > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=crux&m=107592763603892&w=2 > >There has been some talk about introducing 1:n package-category >relationships by making active use of the 'group'/'category' tag in >Pkgfiles: > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=crux&m=107599052116162&w=2 >but I think there was no work done on this. > >Finally, it's very hard to get the granularity right: too many >categories will give the packagers a lot of work when categorizing a >package (which often means that it's not done properly), and too few >will give you again a superset of what you were looking for. In the end, >proper package descriptions and tools to search packages by description >are a pretty good alternative to categories (IMHO, of course). > >Regards, Johannes > > From crux at morpheus.net Mon May 30 13:33:26 2005 From: crux at morpheus.net (crux at morpheus.net) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:33:26 -0500 Subject: [clc-devel] [CLC Ticket Notification] Updated version for slrn Message-ID: <20050530133328.C6F2D10E71F@dream.morpheus.net> Assigned to [clc-devel at lists.berlios.de] The following CLC ticket (63) has been created or modified: Description: Remarks: Contact: strcat at gmx dot net CLC User: sip Status: closed URL: http://clc.morpheus.net:6999/clc/tktview?tn=63 From victord at v600.net Tue May 31 17:58:50 2005 From: victord at v600.net (Victor) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:58:50 -0400 Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts In-Reply-To: <20050526114626.GA6579@titanium> References: <20050526114626.GA6579@titanium> Message-ID: <429CA5DA.1020006@v600.net> Johannes Winkelmann wrote: > Hi, > > Lately, I'm having second thoughts whether it's a good idea to merge opt > and contrib into one collection. Not to be missunderstood, I consider it > very important to merge CVS repositories, and CRUX/CLC. But somehow I > don't like the idea of having 5 window managers, MTA's, web servers and > the like in opt. > > I've been discussing this with Juergen quickly, and he seemed to agree > to that consideration. My suggestion would be to keep a separate > category, maybe called 'extra' or something like that, and allow > maintainers to suggest ports for addition into opt. Those contrib ports > which are currently included on the ISO would certainly make good > candidates for that. > In the end, we have a need for this distinction anyway, since we > couldn't include 'opt' completely an ISO if it was merged with contrib. > At CRUXCon 2004, we said we'd introduce a 'core group', marked with an > attribute in the Pkgfile. To me, keeping a third collection seems very > similar, but easier to understand for users. > > We'd then have the following hierarchy: > - base: ports required to run a crux system > - opt: ports required depending on the use of the machine > - extra: ports which replace ports from opt (function wise) or extend > it > > - contrib: user contributed ports I agree with jdolan. I don't see a big issue in merging them since per already includes some contrib ports in ISO without including the whole ISO. I think the problem might be in some "core" dependencies: like openssl or openssh or xorg. But I think a good solution would be to move those to base. have base sort of be a default functioning system, but move all optional stuff: gtk group, etc.. etc.. to contrib. If that's not convenient, then why have extra in addition to opt? why not just keep opt the way it is? what's wrong with having "extra" ports on contrib the way it is now? Victor From jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com Tue May 31 18:31:38 2005 From: jasonthomasdolan at yahoo.com (Jay Dolan) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050531183138.73268.qmail@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Nick Steeves wrote: > Does the "persistent tags single CVS split into > multiple dirs via cvsup" idea > sound simple and manageable enough? Jonathan Asghar > mentioned splitting up > ports according to function. It seems like we can > probably last another year > without this, but perhaps it might be a good idea > for CRUX-3.0, if our > "CONTRIB: Users" grows significantly? > > Jay: Do you think this functionality could be > implemented the .sync file? > The .sync would be a "sync to where" token. > > Just trying to think about how to keep things > simple, in an increasingly > complex climate. > > Nick > Hi Nick, I'm not sure furthering the purpose of the .sync file is the best idea. I had thought of exactly what you suggest some time ago, but I kinda made myself dismiss it. The "correct" way to achieve that kind of control, in my opinion, would be to use CVS locally for your ports, and make httpup-repgen "CVS-aware." (Catch that, cptn?) Thus, tag ports locally for CONTRIB, OPT, whatever, and tell httpup-repgen to generate a repo for certain tagged versions. But *then* we're just re-implementing cvsup.. I don't know, too complicated - I need a nap. And a cookie. I don't see a reason for all of this worry, to be honest. 1) Find a home for CRUX and CLC projects, setup CVS there. 2) Import CRUX and CLC CVS repositories to the new home. Tag them CRUX-2_1. It's a big collection. So? 3) Bump the ports(8) release number, pack a new .cvsup driver file, alert the mailing lists of the changes. 4) Begin offering the new CONTRIB collection with a few interested httpup maintainers. Barring any disasters, open it up to other maintainers after a few weeks. Everyone gets to continue going about their business for the most part. Per and CLC will have to checkout a new working copy. Users will have to clean their ports tree. Leave the old clc tree online for as long as possible, or tar it up and sweep it under the rug. I don't really care. Flame me for my oversight. We can either hypothesize until the cows come home, or Just do it(r). ;) Jay Dolan Software Engineer, Systems Analyst Windmill Cycles, Inc. 508.999.4000 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From jw at tks6.net Tue May 31 19:53:29 2005 From: jw at tks6.net (Johannes Winkelmann) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:53:29 +0200 Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts In-Reply-To: <20050526161221.32425.qmail@web32909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050526161221.32425.qmail@web32909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050531195329.GA1930@titanium> Hi, On Thu, May 26, 2005 at 09:12:20 -0700, Jay Dolan wrote: > Hi, > > I'm not yet convinced that it's entirely necessary. > What's the harm in having all of these things in opt? I agree it's not necessary... OTOH it seemed like it wouldn't matter that much in the end, and keeping the separation and renaming the current 'contrib' to something else would allow us to start the new contrib soon, without depending on any hosting issues. Mainly, this would allow us to focus on other things, while having a clear situation for CRUX users (a situation which I hope will be stable for some time). Also, it seemed to me that it would be clearer to the user to see that base and opt is on the CD. If only a subset of opt is on the CD, there's some kind of implicit partitioning of 'opt' anyway; expressing that with two collection names (which have the same historical meaning as opt/contrib now) would make that even more clear. That said, I'm really fine with either solution, but wanted to add these arguments to clarify my initial posting. I guess that we'll hear more opinions from other CLC guys as well, so let's wait a bit before we count votes :-). Kind regards, Johannes -- Johannes Winkelmann mailto:jw at tks6.net Bern, Switzerland http://jw.tks6.net From jukka at karsikkopuu.net Tue May 31 20:31:19 2005 From: jukka at karsikkopuu.net (Jukka Heino) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:31:19 +0300 Subject: [clc-devel] contrib/opt merge: second thoughts In-Reply-To: <20050531195329.GA1930@titanium> References: <20050526161221.32425.qmail@web32909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050531195329.GA1930@titanium> Message-ID: <20050531203119.GA20254@fujitsu.ssp.fi> On Tue, May 31, 2005 at 09:53:29PM +0200, Johannes Winkelmann wrote: > Also, it seemed to me that it would be clearer to the user to see that > base and opt is on the CD. If only a subset of opt is on the CD, > there's some kind of implicit partitioning of 'opt' anyway; expressing > that with two collection names (which have the same historical meaning > as opt/contrib now) would make that even more clear. > > > That said, I'm really fine with either solution, but wanted to add these > arguments to clarify my initial posting. I guess that we'll hear more > opinions from other CLC guys as well, so let's wait a bit before we > count votes :-). Personally I find the opt/extra separation a good idea. As you said, including only a subset of opt on the CD would be a bit confusing. And true, this would also make the transition to the new contrib repository easier. So my vote is on having opt and extra separated. :) - Jukka